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MATIERE A REFLEXION vIII
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Chapter one: Historical roots of war of ideas in Islam and Muslims
The contradiction Between the Islamic State and the Religious State
Reflections on Bin Laden and Pakistan – Will There Be a Reckoning?
Ruling without God's Revelation
Building Churches is a recognized right in
Questioning the logic of Hadith
The Meaning of Islam and the Meaning of Taghut
Fatwas: Part Five issued by: Dr. Ahmed Subhy Mansour, translated by: Ahmed Fathy
This Pilgrimage Which Is for the Sake of Satan, and Not to the House of the Dominant Lord
In Egypt: Interrogating the Quranists under torture

The translation of the accusations against the Quranists in Egypt, as it was copied and witnessed by a human right lawyer, when they interrogated Abdellateef:


1 -Denying the prophet Mohammed’s Intercession
Explanation:
The Sunni and the Shiites Muslims believe that the prophet Mohammed will intercede for Muslims ONLY, before God to let them go to Paradise. They also believe that the martyrs have this power of intercession, so the fanatics brainwash the young Muslims to be suicide bombers in order to get the power of intercession in the Day of Judgment.
The Quranists deny this faith acceding to 150 verses in the Quran.
So, this is the first accusation.

2 -Denying the abrogation in the Quranic verses.
Explanation:
To change the real Islamic jurisprudence in the Quran, the Sunni invented their own (shareeah ) ( Jurisprudence ) and attributed it to the prophet Mohammed , two centuries and more after his death. They also abrogated the meaning of the Quranic verses that contradict their (Shareeah) or Jurisprudence.
The Quranists deny this abrogation in the Quran.
So, this is the second accusation.

3-Denying the miracle of the prophet Mohammed’s ascension to heavens.
Explanation:
This myth contradicts the Quran, but they believe it because it make the prophet Mohammed the master of the all the prophets. This also contradicts the Quran. The Quranists deny this myth.
So, it is the third accusation.


4-Denying the infallibility of the prophet Mohammed
Explanation:
According to 150 Quranic verses, the Prophet Mohamed is a human who had many mistakes, but he was corrected and guided by God to preach the Quran in the best way. The Sunni and the Shiites and the Sufi sects deny this because they idolize Mohammed as a God, not human. To obey the Quran, we believe in Mohammed as a human and the final Prophet, and not to idolize him.
So, this is the fourth accusation.

5-Denying the torture in the grave for those who die without repentance
Explanation:

This myth contradicts the Quran, but it is usually used by the fanatic preachers in the mosques and in the T.V religious program to terrorize the masses and to brainwash them.
Denying this myth means to undeceive the masses.
So, it is the fifth accusation.

6-Denying the stoning to death as a punishment of adultery
Explanation:
This penalty contradicts the real Islamic Jurisprudence mentioned in the Quran. Some Arabic and Muslim states (Saudi, Algeria, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Nigeria) are applying this false penalty in the name Islam, while it is fabrication made by old middle aged scholars.
The Quranists refuse this bloody barbarian human made punishment.
So, it is the sixth accusation.


7-Denying a certain sayings ( Al Taheyyat )they use in prayers and replacing it with a verse from the Quran.
Explanation:
The old Sunni scholars in the middle ages invented some saying to exalt and idolize the prophet Mohammed in the Islamic five daily prayers. The Quranists refuse it and the recite some Quranic verses instead of this Sunni saying.
So, this is the seventh accusation.

8-The permission of selling alcohol

9-Denying that their defined amount of (Zakah) Alms is 2.5%.
Explanation:
According to the Quran, we believe the amount of charity is flexible according to the different circumstances. We recommend it to be about %10.
So, this is the eighth accusation.



10-Believing that the pilgrimage could be performed in any of the (four sacred months), not limited to few days
Explanation:
The Saudis keep pilgrimage in only few days every year according to the old Sunni Jurisprudence. This contradicts the Quran, as God make its time during the four sacred months.
The Quranic Jurisprudence is the best solution for millions of pilgrims come every year and jammed in certain place suffering a lot.
Because of offering the Quranic solution we are accused in this tenth accusation.

11-Allowing women to perform prayers and fasting during their monthly period of menstruation
Explanation:
They consider the woman dirty in this time, so they do not allow her to worship God during her period. This is against the Quran.
So, this is the eleventh accusation.


12-Allowing women to lead the prayers including the Friday prayers.
Explanation:
It is OK for woman to lead men in the daily five Islamic prayers, but they refuse it. So, this is the twelfth accusation.


13-Using the Quran as the single source of Islamic legislation
Explanation:
This is confirmed in the Quran, but the Sunni denies it.
So, this is the thirteenth accusation.



14-Considering the sayings of the prophet Mohammed as historical traditions.
Explanation:
Those sayings were attributed to the prophet Mohammed two centuries and more after his death. Those sayings reflect the Middle age culture. All the roots of religious fanaticism, bigotry, Holly war, violence in the name of Jihad, violating human rights, and the culture of religious dictatorship, come from those sayings or Sunna. We believe according to the Quran and the Sunni tradition itself that these Sunni sayings contradict Islam.
So, this is the fourteenth accusation

15-Recognizing only the five daily prayers, not all other prayers.
Explanation:
They consider other prayers as extra, and they devote them to the prophet Mohammed as an aspect of idolizing him. We refuse this because we worship God alone.
So, this is the fifteenth accusation




16-Exploiting some issues, such as the criminal case of what was known as (the children of the streets), and starting a satellite channel to spread their ideology.
Explanation:
This was a suggestion written by Abdellateef to take care of the poor children of streets in Cairo and highlight this problem in the media. We are too poor to have our own satellite channel. It was just a dream in our many dreams of reform.

Because of our dreams of reform from within Islam, our five Quranist people were arrested, tortured and questioned these kinds of questions.
Please read some of these questions and Abdellateef’s answers.


A brief account from the transcripts of the interrogations of Abdelatif

The general prosecutor charged him with the exploitation and falsification of the Islamic faith by spreading ideas that contradict Islam, which will impact the security and social peace and calm in the society. A charge that he denied stating that he defends Islam in the way he strongly believes is in accordance with the basic Islamic teachings, even though some people believe it is not.
He was asked about his beliefs and how did he come to know and believe in them, he answered through Dr. Ahmed Sobhy Mansour, his books, his meetings, his Friday sermons.
He was asked about his relationship to Dr. ASM (Ahmed Sobhy Mansour), he replied that he is his half brother, and that he manages his affairs in Egypt since June 2006.
He was asked about the nature of his work for (ASM), he answered that he was re-writing his books and articles on the computer and mailing it back to him.

The prosecution asked him about his Islamic beliefs, he responded that he does not believe in the Penalty of Apostasy in Islam, does not believe in stoning for adultery, or that some verses in the Quran has been deleted or altered, he believes there is no intercession by the prophet mohammed, no torture in the grave, no infallibility of the prophets except for the revelations, no ascension to heaven in midnight by the prophet.
He was then asked about the books and articles that he was re-writing for (ASM) and how did he obtain them, he said he did not have it in the first place, but it was sent to him from the US by (ASM), who sent them with Mr. Maged Al-Sawaaf and Mr. Mamdouh Nakhlah. When asked about his relation to these two individuals, he replied that he never knew them prior to that, and they contacted him to deliver the books and the articles sent by ASM. Then he added that he started re-writing these books with the help and assistance of other individuals, namely the other defendants who were arrested with him at the same time, and that they were paid for their work.
The prosecution then began to interrogate him regarding the charges he was accused of.

He was asked, what is your opinion about what ASM said in regards to the prophet’s Intercession?
His response was, It is non-existent in Islam, ASM mentioned that there is no reference to it in the Quran, and all throughout his meetings held in Ibn-Khaldun center as well as in the ones held in his own home in addition to all the Friday sermons, he re-affirmed that there is no mention or reference to it in the Quran
He was asked who attended all these meetings with him, and his reply was, Dr. Othman Mohamed Ali, ASM’s nephew, also some other relatives, but they attended as a matter of courtesy to ASM, he was asked again, how ASM came to the conclusion that there is no (prophet’s Intercession), he replied that he could not find it anywhere in the Quran.
He was asked who of those attending the meeting firmly believed in these ideas, and he answered that Dr. Othman as well as myself, but could not tell if any of the other people present adopted these ideas.
Then he was asked about the Penalty of Apostasy according to ASM, to that he answered that there is no evidence or reference to it in the Quran, and that other scholars of Islam had also agreed with ASM.
He was asked how did he come to believe in that, he said by reading ASM’s books as well as the book by Imam Mohamed Abdu that interpreted and explained ten sections of the Quran, and in comparing all that and what some of the “Hadeeth” said, he found no evidence that Penalty of Apostasy existed.
The next question was how do you do your research and interpretation of the Quran, his response was that he studied in the school of Agriculture at the Azhar university, where ASM was a faculty member at the time, and his books were taught to all students.
The next question dealt with his views about the Quran as the only single source of legislation in Islam, to that his answer was that many of the “Hadeeth” are unauthentic, and contradicts the Quran, and that the Quran is sufficient to be the one single source for legislation as it is mentioned in the verse (Is GOD not sufficient for His servant)
The next question was when exactly did he begin to adopt these views, the answer was he could not remember but most likely after his graduation and finishing his military draft in 1994; he began to attend ASM’s meetings and sermons on Fridays in the mosque in Zamamlek, and to read his books. Then he was asked about the number of meetings with ASM and where were they held and what were the issues and subjects discussed, the answer was, I do not remember exactly, but there may have been about 20 meetings, that were held in Ibn-Khaldun Center, since ASM was the director there, and the subjects that he remembered were mainly religious from his published books, but he remembered two subjects in particular, the penalty for apostasy and the intercession of the prophet.

Then he was asked about the reaction of those who attended those meetings to ASM ideas, his reply was that he never discussed it with any of them, but he also mentioned that there were hot discussions and arguments between ASM and some of them who could not agree with him, however there may have been some who did in fact agree.

He was asked to list the names of those who attended, and he replies that they were strangers to him, with the exception of ASM children and his nephew DR. Othman, and the rest who were there as a matter of courtesy.
They asked him how did the people who attended the meeting know in advance about the time and place of those meetings; the answer was that ASM took care of that himself.
The next question was about the nature of his job that he was doing for ASM, he said that he was managing his project to re-type his books and articles and to send it back to him in the US. Then was asked as to the reason that ASM is getting his books and articles re-written again, he responded that ASM wanted all his publications to be posted on the internet site that he established and to have it ready for anyone who would be interested in publishing it.
The next question was about the internet site of ASM, and he answered with the name “ahl –ALQuran”
So he was asked about who developed the site, he said ASM’s son was the one who developed it since that was his specialty.

Then he was asked again about the commands that were deleted in the Quran and replaced with other commands, he answered that ASM has written a book about the subject, and that there is nothing in the Quran to support that claim. They asked if he knew how ASM reached that conclusion, to that he replied that in reading his books and listening to his Friday sermons he was convinced that these claims does not exist in the Quran, then he recited to them two versed from the Quran supporting his viewpoint (Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better) and (The sentence that cometh from Me cannot be changed,) which clearly an indication that God does not change his mind.
The next question was did you discuss these views or spread these views between other people, he affirmed his discussion of these views with some of ASM’s family, but also indicated he did not have ASM qualifications or knowledge to be effective, and that he wrote a few articles on the internet site.

The following question was, you opened two accounts with the Cairo bank, Ameriah branch, one of them in hard currency and the other in Egyptian currency, to deposit the money that the accused ASM sent to you. he said, yes I did, and the money was to pay those who were helping with re-writing his works, and to pay the alms and charities to those that he used to help before his departure to the US. That lead to the question about (Zakah) Alms and if it was 2.5%, he said that ASM mentioned that this percentage does not exist in the Quran and that it was such an insignificant amount, and that he agreed with him.

He was asked again if he wrote anything on the internet site, he said he wrote about 15 articles, all of which were about the contradiction s of the “Hadeeth” to the Quran.
Then he was asked who else contribute his writings to the site, he answered that ASM, Dr. Othman, Ahmed Dahmash, abdelfattah Assaker and General Ali Abdelgawaad.
He was asked again about the funds that were transferred to his account in Cairo bank, he answered that he deposited the funds that ASM sent as well as the other funds that were contributed, and then he was questioned about who contributed those funds, he said they were from a Mr. Saad Elsaad from Kuwait, a Mr. Hatem Kamal from Alexandria, and a Mr. Ibrahim Daddy from Algiers.
They asked if the funds were sent to him or directly transferred to the bank, his response was that the funds were carried to him by Dr. Saadelddin Ibrahim, Khalid, Mona Hashish, and Magdy Elsawwaf.

Then he was asked about his relationship to Dr. Saadeldddin Ibrahim, to that he said he has no relationship to him, and he only knows that he was a friend of ASM, and that he was the director of Ibn-Khaldun center where his brother ASM held his meetings, and that upon arriving from the States, he called him on the phone to deliver the funds his brother sent with him, and that he went to him to get it.

Note:

Every time that he was asked about Ahmed Subhy Mansour’s views, he consistently replied that they have references in the Quran.

since the interrogation dated June 24, 2007, the prosecutor questions were in regards to his role in spreading his views that he strongly believed in, and his response was always that he never spread any of the views himself for the simple reason that he did not consider himself to be knowledgeable enough about the subject, and he thought of himself as a seeker of the truth, that was the reason that he wrote few articles on the site and some other sites, only to find out if these views were right or wrong, and that was also the reason that he spent his time reading and studying his brother’s books and articles.

He was then asked about his relationship to Mr. Assaker, General Abdelgawwad, and Ahmed Dahmash. He replied that they usually met at Mr. Assaker’s home, and that they talked about many things that included politics and when they came to discuss religion, they talked mainly about the “Hadeeth” that contradicted the Quran, especially the ones that dealt with the prophet’s intersession and the other s that dealt with the torture in the grave, which they denounced altogether.

He was then asked about his relation to Ahmed Dahmash, and if he was the one who convinced him with these kind of views, he denied that he was the one that did that, he mentioned that Mr. Dahmash, worked with him in the same place, namely Dr. Othman’s pharmacy, and that he was exposed to these views by Dr. Othman, and that Mr.Dahmash only assisted him in the writing of ASM books, and when he learned about the site of ASM, he asked him to help him join the site to write his views, and that he was solely responsible for his own writings, as he have his own page and his own password.

On June 29, 2007, the interrogation took was about the same thing, and he insisted on denying all the charges in regards to his views and it everything seems to be a repetition of what took place during the previous interrogation.

On the 28th of June 2007, following his appearance in the interrogation room, he requested to be examined by the medical physician because he was tortured by the security forces due to the fact that he was the half brother of ASM, he was asked about the reasons that he never mentioned that before, he replied that it was because at the end of the day, he was sent back with them, and that they tortured him to obtain confessions, and that ALL those confessions were obtained by force and torture.

I (a representative of one of the human rights organization) was asked to be present during his interrogations, and the following is the transcripts of those interrogations:

In the early hours of May 29, 2007, around dawn, many individuals came to my home, some were in plain civilian clothes and others were uniformed, they conducted a full search of my home and they confiscated some computer equipments including a laptop, a printer and a hard disk. They also took many papers and books and newspaper clipping of some articles as well as my bank book.

Q. what do you say about your brother’s denial of the “Hadeeth” that lead to the denial of the of the prophet’s intersession and the denial of the penalty for apostasy in Islam
A. I do not know
Q. what do you know about the people who frequently visited your brother ASM in his apartment in “Mataryia” to hear his views
A. I do not know
Q. what do you know about the visits to his apartment by Othman Mohamed Ali, Aymen Abdelhamid, Mohamed Abdelrahman and Mohamed Sha’laan.
A. I do not know, as I have never seen them in the Friday sermon, I saw Othman only one time, but those who attended the Friday sermon were his own children.
Q. what do you know about ASM frequently visiting Ibn-khaldun center and Rowak to spread his views.
A. He managed that center, and conducted many meeting that dealt with many different fields of thought.
Q. what do you know about your brother’s use of a magazine of Ibn-Khaldun center called “ civil society” to spread his views, and then after the center was closed in 2002 he left to the US.
A. I know he published in that magazine but I am not familiar with its views and direction.
Q. did you buy a computer for Amr Tharwat and Dahmash to assist you in writing ASM articles.
A. did not happen, each of them have his own computer.
Q. what do you have to say about ASM request of you to open two bank accounts , one in the local currency and the other in foreign currency, so he can send you funds to help him spread his views and to increase the number of people on his site.
A. that is not true, he asked me to open the accounts so he can send me money to buy books for him and to pay the obligatory alms and charities.
Q. what do you say about ASM asking you to invite people to visit his internet site, one of those people was Abdelfattah Assaker.
A. He asked me to assist Assayer in sending his writings to the site since he was not familiar of how to send the emails.
Q. did you invite any of Assayer’s friends to write on the site
A. Assaker told his friends to contact me to explain to them the procedure of sending their articles on the email.
Q. what are their names
A. General Ali Abdelgawwad, Abdelfattah Assaker and Abdelaziz Elsherbeni.
Q. what is your relation to them
A. I knew them through Abdel Fattah Assaker
Q. what do you say in what the National Security Officer said, that the meetings you were invited to by Assaker were for those who adopted the views of the ( Quranyoon) and in those meetings a recommendation to add to the Ahl-AlQuran site several people including Ali Abdeltwaab, Abdellateef Hussien, Kamal Shaheen, AbdelAziz Elsherbibi, Mohamed Khalifah and Sarah Eltahhan.
A. that is not true, and all those people requested to write on the site, only Ali Abdeltwaab and Abdellatif Hussien managed to write there.
Q. what do you say about what you told the security officer that you have adopted and are convinced with your brother’s views
A. that was the result of the pressure applied to me, but as I said, I am still evaluating those views and doing all my research, but have not reached a conclusion.
Q. what do you say about what the investigation found that you have exploited the (Street children) known case and that you formed an organization to serve your views.
A. that was an idea from one of the writers on the site to ASM who turned it down.
Q. what do you say in regards to your planning to start a satellite TV channel to help in spreading your views on a large scale.
A. not true and did not happen
Q. you are accused of spreading radical thoughts and views with the intention of contempt towards Islam and to harm the social peace and stability.
A. not true and did not happen

The interrogation was concluded around 1.00 pm on July 3, 2007.
His family was permitted to visit with him.









P.S
This is the Arabic Copy


Print - Close Window
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:09:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Sherif Mansour" <sherifmnsour@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: التحقيقات
To: mas5949@yahoo.com


andalus itas <andalusitas@yahoo.com> wrote:
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: andalus itas <andalusitas@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: التحقيقات
To: sherif mansour <sherifmnsour@yahoo.com>
هاي يا باشا

انا حضرت الاجتماع بتاع المحامين
وهما لغاية دلوقتي مصوروش التحقيقات
هيرفعوا قضية علشان يلزموا النيابة تديهم صورة من التحقيقات
بس واحد منهم كتب ملخص لتحقيق
حضرة معاهم
الاتهامات موجودة في الصفحة الاولي
انا عايز الدكتور يكتب مقال كبير شوية
في المصري اليوم والدستور
بس المصري اهم
يناقش فية الافكار دي بس بشكل غبر هجومي
ويوضح نقط الاتفاق مع النظام
مثلا في موضوع بيع الخمر
لازم يقول ان غير كدة تبقي الدولة يجوز تكفيرها وتكفيرها يؤدي للخروج عليها زي الجماعات الاسلامية
ما بتقول وانه فية
فرق بين البيع والشرب
كدة يعني والنبي لحسن في سوء فهم شديد عند النيابة

asem ibrahem <kzamana@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: asem ibrahem <kzamana@hotmail.com>
To: <andalusitas@yahoo.com>
CC: <mahmoud.ibrahem@gmail.com>
Subject: التحقيقات
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 18:21:26 +0300


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Ahmed Samih
Director of Andalus institute for tolerance
and anti-violence studies
office: +202 2794 32 98
Cell phone:+2 012 357 4984
FAX:+202 2794 38 97


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الاتهام الموجه اليهم
1- انكار الشفاعة
2- انكار الناسخ والمنسوخ فى القران
3- انكار معجزة المعراج
4- انكار عصمة الانبياء
5- انكار عذاب القبر
6- انكار حد الرجم فى الزنا
7- انكار بداية التشهد وابدالها باية من القران
8- اباحة بيع الخمور
9- انكار قيمة الزكاة المعروفة وهى ربع العشر
10- اباحة الحج فى اى من الاشهر الحرم
11- اباحة صلاة وصيام المراة اثناء الحيض
12- اباحة امامة المراة للرجل فى الصلاة وفى خطبة الجمعة
13 – الاعتماد على القران كمصدر التشريع فقط
14 - اعتبار الاحاديث النبوية من قبل التراث التاريخى
15 – انكار صلاة الاعياد والنوافل والتطوع
16 – استغلال بعض القضايا العامة مثل اطفال الشوارع وانشاء قناة فضائية لنشر فكرهم













ملخص التحقيق مع عبد اللطيف

وجهت لة النيابة العامة تهمة استغلال الدين الاسلامى و الاساءة لة عن طريق الترويج لافكار مخالفة لتعاليم الدين الاسلامى و هو الامر الذى يؤثر على الامن و السلام الاجتماعى وقد انكرالمتهم الاتهام الموجة لة و ذكر انة مدافع عن الدين الاسلامى فى حدود ما يعتقد بة من معتقدات يراها البعض انها مخالفة للاسلام
و سالتة النيابة عن تلك المعتقدات ومن اين اعتقد بها وذكر المتهم انة اعتنق تلك الافكار عن طريق الدكتور احمد صبحى منصور من خلال كتبة و ندواتة و خطب الجمعة التى كان يحضرها فى المسجدالذى كان يخطب فية الدكتور احمد صبحى
وسالتة النيابة عن علاقتة بالدكتور احمد صبحى منصور فذكر انة شقيقة من الام وانة يعمل مدير اعمالة منذ منتصف شهر 6- 2006
وسؤل عن الاعمال التى يقوم بها للدكتور د- احمد صبحى فذكر انة يقوم باعادة كتابة كتبة ومقالاتة على جهاز الكمبيوتر و يقوم بارسالها لة مرة اخرى
وفى سؤال للنيابة للمتهم عن الافكار التى يعتنقها فذكر انة لا يوجد حد للردة فى الاسلام و كذلك الرجم كما لا يوجد ناسخ و منسوخ ولا شفاعة ولا عذاب قبر و ان عصمة االانبياء من امور الوحى فقط و ان المعراج لا يوجد دليل علية فى القران و انة يرفضة
وسالتة النيابة عن الكتب و المقالات التى يعيد كتابتها مرة اخرى للدكتور صبحى منصورمن اين جاء بها فذكر انة لم تكن موجودة لدية و لم يتمكن من الحصول عليها فقام الدكتور احمد منصور بارسالها الية من امريكا مع بعض الاشخاص وهم ماجد الصواف و ممدوح نخلة ، ثم سئل عن علاقتة بهم فاجاب انة ميعرفهمش و انهم هم اللى قاموا بالاتصال بة بعد ما الدكتور احمد منصور اعطاهم رقمه، ثم اضاف انة بعد ذلك قام باعادة كتابة تلك الكتب بمساعدة بعض الاشخاص و هم المتهمين الاخرين فى القضية حيث ان كل شخص كان يحصل على مقابل مادى على كتابتهم لتلك الكتب ، ثم بدات النيابة فى الاتهامات السابق ذكرها
س / ما قولك فيما ذكرة د.منصورفى الشفاعة ؟
اجاب انة لا توجد شفاعة فى الاسلام وان د-احمد ذكر انها لا اصل لها فى القران الكريم وانة قد اطلع على ذ لك من خلال حضورالندوات التى كان ينظمها الدكتور احمد منصور فى رواق ابن خلدون وفى بيتة فى المطرية وكذلك فى خطب الجمع
ثم سئل عن من كان يحضر معة تلك الندوات ذكر انة كان يحضر معة الدكتور عثمان محمد على ابن اخو الدكتور احمد صبحى هو وبعض اقاربهم اذا حضروا ، فانهم يحضرون من باب المجاملة فقط . وسئل كيف جاء الدكتور صبحى بانة لا توجد شفاعة فقال انة بحث فى القران و تاكد من عدم وجود اصل لة فى القران
ثم سئل عن من هم الذين اعتنقوا تلك الفكرة فذكرانة الدكتور عثمان وهو ، اما الاخرين من الحضور فلا يعرف هل هم اعتنقوا تلك الافكار ام لا
ثم سئل عن قولة فى حد الردة و هو ما تحدث عنة احمد صبحى منصور قال انة لا يوجد حد للردة فى الاسلام و لا دليل لة فى القران و ان كثير من العلماء تحدثوا عن ذلك الامر.
ثم سئل عن كيف توصل الى تلك الفكرة فذكر انه توصل الى اعتناقة الافكار عن طريق اطلاعة على كتب ومقالات الدكتور احمد منصور وكذلك بعض الكتب الخاصة بالامام محمد عبده مثل تفسير الامام محمد عبدة لعشرة اجزاء من القران وانه كان يقارن بين ما قام بالاطلاع علية وما يعرفة من الاحاديث وبين ايات القران فلم يجد ما يدلل على حد الردة .
ثم سئل عن كيفية تحديد اسلوب البحث فى القران فقال انه خريج كلية الزراعة جامعة الازهر وان دراسته كانت بالازهر من الصغر وانه درس الفقة والحديث وكان من ضمن ما كان يدرس لهم كتب الدكتور احمد منصور اثناء عملة بالازهر .
وسئل بعد عن قوله فى القران كمصدر للتشريع فقط .
فاجاب ان هناك الكثير من الاحاديث مدسوسة على الاسلام ولا اصل لها وهى تخالف الكثير من القران .
فوجهت لة النيابة كيف يعتبر ذلك صحيحا وان هناك مصادر اخرى للتشريع غير القران
فاجاب ان القران كافى وشامل لكل شئ بدليل قوله تعالى ( اليس الله بكاف عبده ) وان كتب الدكتور .
فسئل عن بداية اعتناقة لتلك الافكار .
فاجاب انه بالتحديد لا يستطيع ان يذكر انما تقريبا منذ تخرجه من الجامعة وادائه الخدمة العسكرية عام 1994 بدأ فى الاطلاع على كتب ومقالات الدكتور احمد منصور وحضور الندوات التى كان يعقدها وكذلك خطب الجمعة فى المسجد اللى فى شارع ابو الفداء بالزمالك .
فسئل عن عدد الندوات التى قام بالحضور فيها مع الدكتور منصور واماكن انعقادها وعما كانت تدور .
فاجاب انا مش متذكر بس هما تقريبا حوالى 20 ندوه وكانت تعقد فى مركز ابن خلدون لان الدكتور احمد كان مدير رواق ابن خلدون وكانت تدور حول افكار الدكتور احمد منصور المنشورة فى كتبة و مقالاتة وكانت بتدور حول مواضيع دينية بصفة عامة بس الحقيقة مش فاكرعناوين الموضيع بس هو اتكلم فى حد الردة والشفاعة ودول هما اللى فاكرهم .
فسئل عن انطباع الحاضرين لتلك الندوات عن افكار الدكتور احمد منصور ؟
فاجاب انا معرفش انطباعهم ايه لانى لم اتناقش معهم ، بس هو كان فى جدال شديد مع الدكتور احمد بسبب تلك الافكار وذلك لعدم اقتناع بعض الحاضرين بتلك الافكار لانكارها امور ورد فيها نص صريح فى القران ولكن كان هناك البعض اظن انهم متقبل لتلك الافكار.
فسئل معرفته بالحاضرين لتلك الندوات واسمائهم ؟ فاجاب اه لا يعرفهم الا اقارب الدكتور احمد منصور مثل الدكتور عثمان محمد على واولاد الدكتور احمد وان معظم الحاضرين كانوا يحضرون على سبيل المجاملة .
فسئل عن كيفية علم الحاضرين بتلك الندوات ؟
فاجاب ان الدكتور احمد هو اللى كان بقوم بدعوتهم لتلك الندوات .
فسئل بعد ذلك عن كيفية عمله بالدكتور احمد منصور ؟
فاجاب انه يعمل مدير لاعماله ويقوم باعادة كتابة كتبه ومقالاته وارسالها له مرة اخرى .
فسئل عن ما هو السبب لاعادة كتابة تلك الكتب والمقالات فذكر ان الدكتور احمد كان عايز ينزلها على الموقع اللى هو عمله على النت وتكون جاهزة فى حالة نشرها عن طريق اى طرق النشر .
فسئل : عن الموقع الذى يتم النشر عليه على الانترنت ؟
ج : فذكر اسمه اهل القرأن
س : ومن الذى قام بعمل هذا الموقع ( اهل القرأن ) ؟
ج : احمد صبحى منصور هو الذى قام بأنشاء هذا الموقع وذلك عن طريق ابنه حيث انه متخصص فى هذا المجال .
س : ما رأيك فى الناسخ والمنسوخ فى القرأن الكريم ؟
ج : هو فيه كتاب للدكتور احمد صبحى منصور بهذا الاسم وانه لا يوجد ناسخ ومنسوخ فى القرأن الكريم .
س : وكيف توصل الدكتور احمد صبحى منصور الى ذلك ؟
ج : انا معرفش لكن من خلال قرأتى لهذا الكتاب هنا بعض الايات القرأنية التى استند اليه الدكتور احمد منصور فى حديثه عن الناسخ والمنسوخ مثل الايه التى تقول " ما ننسخ من ايه او ننسها نأت بخير منها " والايه التى تقول " ما يبدل القول لدى " وهذا دليل على ان ربنا لا يغير كلامه وانا مقتنع بهذه الافكار وذلك من خلال قرأتى لكتب الدكتور احمد منصور وحضور خطب الجمعة التى كان يتحدث فيها عن تلك الافكار .
س: وهل قمت بدعوة احد الى تلك الافكار او الحديث معه على تلك الافكار ؟
ج : ايوه انا كنت باتناقش مع بعض الاشخاص ولكن من اقارب الدكتور منصور وفى حدود المواضيع التى تطرح علينا فى بعض الندوات ولكن لم اتعرض للحوار بكفائة الدكتور احمد منصور بس انا كتب فى بعض المواضيع على الموقع بتاع اهل القران .
س : انت قمت بفتح حسابين فى بنك القاهرة فرع الاميرية احدهم بالعملة الاجنبية والعملة المحلية وذلك لتلقى الاموال التى يرسلها المتهم احمد منصور لك .
ج : ايوه بس الفلوس اللى كنت باخدها من احمد منصور علشان ادفع منها رواتب الناس اللى كانو بيكتبوا الكتب والمقالات بتاعة الدكتور احمد وكذلك الزكاة والصدقات على الناس اللى كان الدكتور احمد بيرسلهم قبل ما يسافر .
ثم سئل عن قولة فى مقدار الزكاة وهو ربع العشر ؟
فاجاب ان الدكتور احمد قال ان غير موجود فى القران وانه مبلغ ضئيل وانا ارفض ذلك المبلغ واقتنع براى الدكتور احمد منصور
ثم سئل مرة اخرى عن موقع اهل القران وهل قام بالكتابة عليه ؟
فاجاب انه بالفعل قد كتب على الموع ما يقرب من حوالى 15 مقال و كانت تدورحول الاحاديث المخالفة للقران الكريم
وسئل عمن كان يقوم بالكتابة ايضا على هذا الموقع فقال ان الدكتور احمد و الدكتور عثمان و كذلك احمد دهمش و عبد الفتاح عساكر و اللواء على عبد الجواد
ثم سئل مرة اخرى عن الاموال التى كانت تحول لحسابة فى بنك القاهرةفقال انة يقوم بايداع المبالغ اللى كان بيقوم بارسالها الدكتور صبحى منصورو كذلك المبالغ التى كان يتم التبرع بها
و سئل عمن كان يقوم بالتبرع فاجاب واحد اسمة سعد السعد و دة من الكويت و حاتم كمال من الاسكندرية و ابراهيم الدالى و هو من الجزائر
سئل عمن كان يقوم بتوصيل الفلوس لة من الدكتور احمد صبحى ام كان يرسلها لة مباشرة على البنك؟
اجاب انة كان يقوم بارسالها مع اشخاص كانوا فى امريكا يعرفهم د.احمد و هم د. سعد الدين ابراهيم و خالد وواحدة اسمها منى حشيش و مجدى الصواف
فسئل عن علاقتة بالدكتور سعد الدين ابراهيم فاجاب انة ليس لة اى علاقة بة واللى يعرفة انة كان صاحب الدكتور صبحى منصور وانة مدير مركز ابن خلدون واحمد اخوياكان بيعمل ندواتةهناك وهوة لماجة من امريكااتصل بية علشان احمد اخويا اعطاة رقمى و انا رحت قابلتة واخدت منة الفلوس اللى احمد اخويا كان بعتهالى
ملحوظة
عندما كان يسال المتهم عن اقوال احمد صبحى حول انكار للسنة و الاحادديث كان يجيب بنفس الاجابة و هى ان احمدكان يجدلها اصل فى القران
منذ التحقيق المؤرخ 24-6-2007بدات النيابة النيابة توجية الاسئلة الى عبد اللطيف حول دورة فى الترويج الى الافكار التى كان يعتنقها
فتم توجية الاتهام الية بالترويج الى تلك الافكارفانكر وقال انة لم يقم با لترويج لهالانة لا يجيد الحوار و انة كان يقوم بكتابة بعض المقالات على موقع اهل القران و المواقع الاخرى لانة يعتبر نفسة باحث مسلم يريد معرفة صحة تلك الافكارمن عدمها و كان يقوم بالبحث فى هذا الموضوع من خلال اطلاعة على الكتب الخاصة بالدكتور صبحى منصور و المقالات و كذلك الندوات التى كان يعقدها بمركز ابن خلدون
وسئل عن علاقتة بكل من عبد الفتاح عساكر و اللواء على عبد الجواد و احمد دهمش فقال انهم كانوا يتقابلون عند عبد الفتاح عساكر و كانوا يتحدثون فى امور كثيرة فى السياسة و غيرها من الامورو عندما كانوا يتحدثون عن الدين كانوا يتحدثون فى الاحاديث النبويةالتى كانت تخالف القران و كانوا ينكرونها و منها احاديث الشفاعة وعذاب القبر
ثم سئل عن علاقتة باحمد دهمش وانة هو من قام باقناعة بهذة الافكار فانكر كل ذلك وقال ان احمد يعمل معة فى صيدلية د.عثمان محمد على وانة اعتنق تلك الافكارمن د. عثمان محمد على وكانت علاقتة بة من خلال مساعدة احمد لة فى كتابة كتب و مقالات د.صبحى منصور و ان احمد عندما علم بموقع اهل القران طلب ان يكتب فية و انة هو المسؤل عن كتابتةلانة كان لة صفحة فى هذا الموقع ومعة الباسوورد الخاص بها
ثم سئل عن محاولة مناقشة دهمش فى الافكار التى كان يروج لها وهى أفكارمنصور فانكر ذلك و قال انة عندما تحث مع ا حمد دهمش تحدث فى موضوع ارضاع الكبيروان هذا الموضوع لا اصل لة من الصحة
ثم فى تحقيق يوم28-6-2007بدا نوعا ما فى انكار تلك الاتهامات و صمم على انة فى مرحلة البحث حول تلك الافكار التى اطلع عليهامن خلال كتب د منصور و انة كان يعمل على مساعدتة فى كتابة تلك الكتب و المقالات الخاصة بة حتى يتمكن من نشر تلك الكتب على موقع اهل القران و اعادة نشرها مرة اخرى عن طريق دور النشر اذا طلبوا ذلك
ما تم فى تحقيق يوم 29/6/2007
عند دخول المتهم غرفة التحقي طلب احالته الى مصلحة الطب الشرعى لانه تعرض للتعزيب من قبل ضباط امن الدولة وذلك لكونه شقيق الدكتور احمد منصور .
فسئل عن عن عدم ذكره ذلك فى بداية التحقيقات .
فاجاب لانه كان يعود بعد انتهاء التحقيق الى جهاز امن الدولة وان الضباط قد قاموا بتهديده واجباره على الاعتراف بما يريدون وان كل الاعترافات التى ادلى بها من قبل كانت نتيجة اكراه .
حيث تم تكليفى لحضور تحقيق نيابة امن الدولة مع المتهم عبد اللطيف محمد احمد و فيما يلى مضمون التحقيق
يوم 29-5-2007الفجر جم ناس لبيتى بعضهم لابس ملكى و بعضهم لابس ميرى وفتشوا الشقة و اخدوا لاب توب ماركةdell و كيسة ماركة hb-ام بى فورماركةsony و هارديسك
بعض الاوراق والكتب و دفتر توفير بعض المقالات فى الصحف
س ما قولك فى انكار شقيقك الاحاديث النبوية مما ترتب علية انكار شفاعة الرسول و انكار حد الردة فى الاسلام
ج محصلش
ما قولك فى تردد البعض على شقة احمد صبحى منصور بالمطرية لتلقى افكارة
ج محصلش
س ما قولك فى تردد كل من عثمان محمد على و ايمن وعبد الحميدمحمد عبد الرحمن و محمد شعلان على مسكن المذكور
ج محصلش لانى مشفتهمش فى خطب الجمعة للدكتورمنصور و عثمان شفتو مرة وحدة واللى كانوا بيحضروا الخطبة اولاد د احمد صبحى
س ما قولك فى تردد احمد صبحى على مركز ابن خلدون وترددة على رواق ابن خلدونلنشر افكارة
ج د منصور تولى ادارة رواق ابن خلدون و هو يعقد ندوات فى مختلف المجالات الفكرية
س ما قولك فى استغلال شقيقك مجلة المجتمع المدنى بمركز ابن خلدون لنشر افكارة و بعد غلق المركز عام 2002سافر لامريكا
ج كان بينشر فى مجلة المجتمع المدنى و لكن انا معرفش افكارها
ما قولك فى قيامك بشراء اجهزة حاسب الى لكل من عمرو ثروت و دهمش لمساعدتك لكتابة مقالات د احمد صبحى منصور
محصلش لان كل واحد فيهم عندة كمبيوتر
س ما قولك فى قيام صبحى منصور بتكليفك بفتح حسابين بالبنك احدهما بالعملة المحلية و الاخر بالاجنبية لتتلقى من خلالهما الدعم المرسل اليك منة لتنفيذ تكليفاتة بنشر افكارة على موقع اهل القران و استقطاب جدد على الموقع
ج محصلش هوة كلفنى بفتح حساب عشان يبعتلى علية فلوس عشان ا شترى كتب لة وصرف الزكاة
س ما قولك بقيام منصور بتكليفك بدعوة بعض الاشخاص للاطلاع على موقع اهل القران و من بينهم عبد الفتاح عساكر
ج-هوة طلب منى ان اساعد عساكر للكتابة على الموقع لانة مكنش بيعرف يبعت ايميل
س-هل دعيت احد من اصدقاء عساكر للكتابة على موقع اهل القران
ج-عساكر قال لهم و اتصلوا بيا عشان يسالونى ازاى يكتبو ع الموقع
س- ما هى اسماؤهم
ج-اللواء على عبد الجواد-عبد الفتاح عساكر- عبد العزيز الشربينى
س ما علاقتك بهم
ج-عرفتهم عن طريق عبد الفتاح عساكر
س-ما قولك فيما اضافة ضابط مباحث امن الدولة انك قررت لة ان اللقاءات التى دعاك لها عبد الفتاح عساكركانت تضم معتنقى فكر القرانيين و تم ترشيح البعض لموقع اهل القران منهم على عبد التواب-عبد اللطيف حسين –كمال شاهين-عبد العزيز الشربينى- محمد خليفة-سارة الطحان
ج-محصلش و كلهم طلبوا الكتابة على الموقع ومحدش كتب غيرعلى عبد التواب و عبد اللطيف حسين
س – ما قولك فيما قررت بة لضابط مباحث امن الدولة باقتناعك بافكار شقيقك منصور
ج-نتيجة الضغط عليا اضطررت اقول كدة ولكن انا زى ما قلت ما زلت بمرحلة الدراسة و البحث و لم اصل بعد الى نتيجة
س –ما قولك فى ما جاء بالتحريات استغلال قضية اطفال الشوارع و عمل جمعية لخدمة اغراض فكركم
ج-دة اقتراح من احد الاشخاص اللى بيكتبو على الموقع طرحة على د صبحى ورفض
س -ما قولك فى عزمكم انشاء محطة فضائية لنشر افكاركم نظرا لاتساع ذلك المجال
ج-محصلش

س- انت متهم بالترويج لافكارمتطرفة بقصد تحقير الدين الاسلامى و ازدراؤة و الاضرار بالسلام الاجتماعى
ج- محصلش
وانتهى التحقيق على ان يستكمل يوم الثلاثاء الموافق 3-7-2007الساعة الواحدة ظهرا
وقد سمح لاهل المذكور بزيارتة














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